tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post2481412031548089831..comments2023-09-30T08:07:26.165-04:00Comments on Mystical Politics: Reactions to UCU Congress motion on antisemitismRebeccahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17626228106192215280noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-34702820260142327492011-06-02T17:01:01.672-04:002011-06-02T17:01:01.672-04:00So you think that David Hirsh and his comrades at ...So you think that David Hirsh and his comrades at Engage are trying to show their bonafides to antisemites by criticizing Israel? Are you crazy? If you had paid any real attention to David Hirsh and his comrades in Engage, you would know how ridiculous a statement that is. <br /><br />Do you know anything about Hirsh and what he and his comrades have actually been trying to do in the UCU and other venues? He's stuck it out in the National Executive Committee of the UCU, which is mostly composed of ultra-leftwingers from the British Socialist Workers Party - an unpleasant group to spend any time with. He's done his best to represent sanity in that union, which has been taken over by a small slice of its membership who are obsessed with Israel. I think he understands the current state of debate in Britain, and the UCU, a hell of lot better than you do.<br /><br />I am tired of your condescending remarks, such as "I am shocked that you do not understand that basic point of how political debate works." I am not a student in a class in which you are passing on your pearls of wisdom.<br /><br />It seems to me that you spend an awful lot of time telling other people how they should fight antisemitism and defend Israel. Perhaps you should try doing it yourself in the real world, not merely in comments to other people's blogs.<br /><br />Any more comments from you will be deleted - I can tell from the style that you're the same person who called himself N. Friedman before. I don't appreciate sock puppets. Nor do I appreciate people who never listen to what the other person in an argument says.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17626228106192215280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-61504610908952059212011-06-02T12:21:50.795-04:002011-06-02T12:21:50.795-04:00Rebecca,
For the record, I do not claim that crit...Rebecca,<br /><br />For the record, I do not claim that criticizing Israel is Antisemitic. It can be, of course. Clearly groups like Engage think that they undermine Antisemitism by showing their bona fides in criticizing Israel. My view is that the Antisemites say in response: "You have criticism. I am just more vehement because I think the evil is greater than you. So, we merely disagree in the degree of fault." That is a loser for Engage. <br /><br />I am shocked that you do not understand that basic point of how political debate works. One can criticize Israel. But, do not do it as part of fighting Antisemitism. Otherwise, you are helping the Antisemites, in my humble view.The Athenianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02615712654380766868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-79083138058249594752011-06-02T12:15:12.159-04:002011-06-02T12:15:12.159-04:00Rebecca,
I agree that it is possible to have two ...Rebecca,<br /><br />I agree that it is possible to have two thoughts at once. The issue is whether those two thoughts do well in one organization. My contention is that an organization dedicated to fighting Antisemitism has more than enough to deal with without muddling the message.<br /><br />Lest you have not noticed, the Antisemites are doing rather well in the UK and Engage has been more or less ineffectual. Maybe, there is nothing better that could have been done. However, my bet is that one fights Antisemites by fighting them, not by arguing about Israel's policies.The Athenianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02615712654380766868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-35710548705245176962011-06-02T12:14:46.477-04:002011-06-02T12:14:46.477-04:00As the EUMC definition of antisemitism says: "...As the EUMC definition of antisemitism says: "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."It is not antisemitic, for example, to criticize the concentration of wealth in Israel in the hands of a very few rich families - a state of affairs dramatized last year in the film "Shitat ha-Shakshuka" which was shown on Israel television last year at about this time (when I was visiting).Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17626228106192215280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-4402200648525156882011-06-02T12:10:13.207-04:002011-06-02T12:10:13.207-04:00Athenian - I agree with the Engage writers. It is,...Athenian - I agree with the Engage writers. It is, you know, possible to have two thoughts at the same time - both to condemn the occupation and regard it as a ticking time-bomb which may very well destroy Israel as a Jewish state - and to condemn antisemitism. It is possible to criticize actions of the state of Israel without being an antisemite, as I'm sure you are aware, and that is what Engage is doing when it publishes articles critical of the occupation. If the UCU Congress confined itself to criticizing Israeli actions, then I don't think that Engage would ever have formed - its organizers would have left the defense of Israel to the Zionist Federation and other bodies. UCU wants to say that it's impossible for any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, and you want to say that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. I prefer to remain in reality, where I think that some Israeli actions are reprehensible while others are praiseworthy.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17626228106192215280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-9696391728927193962011-06-02T11:39:23.142-04:002011-06-02T11:39:23.142-04:00I have, from time to time and with more, sometimes...I have, from time to time and with more, sometimes, and less, other times, intensity, followed what has been going on in the UK professorial unions, reading, in particular, the Engage website. My impression is that the leadership of Engage wants things two ways that cannot mix in one project. It wants to criticize the "occupation" but it wants to protect Israel and Jews from being demonized. In my mind, those two propositions cannot fill one agenda, and the results is that groups like Engage are entirely ineffectual.<br /><br />Had groups like Engage focused on the agenda of the Antisemites, and leave it other groups to express their views on Israel's occupation, they might better have stood up to the bullies. Instead, they have a muddled message - the occupation is bad, but do not say bad things about Jews or go too far in criticizing Israel. In English, these groups are saying that the Antisemites are half-right.The Athenianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02615712654380766868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5448657.post-5188419877180641602011-05-30T23:07:46.377-04:002011-05-30T23:07:46.377-04:00I thought what Ronnie Fraser said was so heartfelt...I thought what Ronnie Fraser said was so heartfelt. What an appalling situation....ModernityBloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955noreply@blogger.com